Taylor Swift brings bread & a wedding invite to Greg James | The Life of a Showgirl Interview –  Hw

Taylor >> buddy, >> I just do you know what? I just knew a few weeks ago I said I just feel like it’s gonna happen again. >> Yeah. >> I just was like I think she’s gonna want to do a chat. >> It’s I was like we got to we got to call Greg. We got to we got to do something. It’s been too long. >> It has.

And I’m I’m so pleased that you’re up for chatting and just chat just we we’re overdue a catch up. >> It’s nice. It’s nice. We we’ve Oh, I see what’s happening now. The ASMR of the bread bag. >> Would you like to explain? Yeah. So, I’ve been baking and so I I brought Greg some sourdough because it’s it’s it’s lemon blueberry which I think is like a really nice variation.

>> Fantastic. And you’ve put the fate of >> doilia. Yeah. You know the bread puns like I think the worse they are the better. >> Well, do you know what? I obviously I listen to the New Heights podcast. >> You did? >> Of course I did. >> I’m so glad. >> Are you joking? Of course. So glad. >> And by the way, ball a move to announce an album 90 minutes into a football podcast.

>> Like okay. No, we like with their like weird flex, but okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. But at B 90 minutes, you talked about everything and you went, by the way, here’s a briefcase. Here’s the album. >> I’m always trying to surprise people with how I announce albums. I’d done a few album announcements on award shows.

And so, you know, you do something one time and people were like, I know what she’s going to do next. She’s going to do the same thing she did before. So, I was like, what what is what are people not going to expect me to do? Is to go on a on a football podcast and announce an album.

It’s very I love the kind of polarity of the masculine feminine there. >> Well, it’s very funny cuz you are very funny and you like silly stuff essentially and I mean the bread. So, you did your sourdough chat and then you talked about the album. >> Yeah, I think I talked about bread for I think maybe 320 hours >> or longer than about the record.

People were like, “Okay, if she doesn’t stop talking about sourdough, because it’s like I’m I’m it’s a it’s a danger for me to start because I cannot stop talking about bread when I start >> and it has nothing to do with music. It’s the most >> musically irrelevant thing. It’s completely separate.” >> But it’s nice and I’m so grateful because it’s got lots of cat stickers on it as well, which I’ve really I really like, you know, in the in the >> I chose them very carefully.

you um >> for what your sense of humor is in in my um approximation of it having known you for as long as I have. >> You’ve nailed it. You have nailed it. And by the way, when you got doing the the puns of your songs and bread, you you did miss bake it off. >> Well, that’s I just thought it’s too easy. >> No, but you like I mean doilia is >> But that’s current. That’s current.

>> It’s current. Sorry. It’s current. And that’s the one thing that makes it relevant to our conversation. >> So the album’s out. The album is out and I and I have such >> uncomplicated feelings of joy about it. >> I do not feel any twisty, tortured way about it, which is not how I felt about the last album because there was such a lag time between, you know, when you when you make music and then you put it out.

There’s there’s often times your life can make drastic changes in those times. >> Um, with this album, my life isn’t exactly the same spot >> as when I wrote the record. I’m so pleased to see you and I’m so pleased to see you happy as well. >> I feel the same way about you. >> And the album reflects your mood which is I think you’re you’re probably feeling quite giddy.

>> I think you’re feeling bright and happy and swear which I really like. It’s in the in some of the some of the tracks on the album. It’s just it’s big happy pop. >> Yeah. >> And you’re clearly you’re in love. >> Yeah. >> You are. It’s it’s kind of gross. >> No, it’s not. >> It’s sickeningly. >> No, it’s not. It’s not.

I don’t know what you heard. >> It’s not It’s not that kind of album. >> No. No. But it’s but it’s lovely and bright and happy, but it’s got it’s >> also got teeth to it. >> It absolutely has. >> So like I’m I’m proud of that too because it’s a full picture of of like the full life experience, which for me is like there’s always some element of drama that someone is forcing into my consciousness, >> which is fun to write about, too.

>> But by the way, I love being sickeningly in love. It’s so nice. >> It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. Um, you know, it’s like I used to kind of have this dark fear that that if I ever were truly like happy and free being myself and and nurtured by a relationship and what like what happens if the writing just dries up, what if writing is directly tied to my torment and pain? >> And it turns out that’s not the case at all and we just were catching lightning in a bottle with this record.

But it’s nice because you from a from a place of happiness and um and love, you can go you can go back to those places. You can look forward to other things. And that’s that’s what the record feels like is that you’re still able to access those feelings of frustration, of anger, of really good of the really good stuff.

>> Yeah. And you you basically like I I think you know I made this album with Max Martin and Shellback who I hadn’t worked with in maybe seven or eight years. And in the time that we kind of took a break from working together, we were all out there honing powers of of of different types. And one of the things I was really playing with in our time away was writing in character and kind of developing these characters and these character arcs and things.

And that’s that is present on this record. Even though it’s about my life, sometimes you cosplay like this is a love song through the lens of Elizabeth Taylor’s life. Like there’s different motifs that I think we’re trying out on this record that are um sort of a culmination of me practicing and and working up to the point where I could make this kind of album.

>> When did you start playing it to people? When did you when did you play it to uh to Travis? To Big Trav? >> Oh, can I call him Big Tra? >> Yeah. Yeah, you absolutely can. You could He responds to pretty much anything. He’s great. He’s a really easygoing guy. You will absolutely love him when you meet him.

Um, but yeah, like I would play it for him as soon as I’d come back from Sweden. >> Okay. >> As soon as I’d come back from Sweden, I’d just like play it for him. And I knew that this was the kind of album that he was going to love the most. He’s like so supportive of all of it, but like he’s a real vibes guy. >> He’s a vibes guy.

Well, you described him as an exclamation mark. >> Yeah, he is. >> Yeah, that’s such a lovely way of describing someone. >> Thank you. That’s it’s very accurate. >> I was going to say to you was that, you know, you and I have known each other for so long, longer than Travis has known you. I feel like I should I need to just I need to just check that because my the vibes are strong from him.

I think he’s a great guy, but I need to check for sure. I just want to play catch with him. >> No, he would he would do that. That’s all I want to do. You’ll love that. Like my all of my guy friends are like, I just want Travis to like pick me up and throw me over a roof or throw me in the pool. >> I could do I would love that. >> Yeah.

Yeah. It’s really cuz it’s like you know he’s 6’6 but it’s also you don’t the width of the shoulders is also like seeing him walk through a door is genuinely a privilege. >> Um >> yeah. Okay. Well that’s that’s great. I’d like him to maybe just do a wrestling move on me into a pool or something would be great. >> The way that he’s going to do that as soon as he sees you at our wedding is like that’s going to happen.

Like he’s just gonna >> Oh, did I >> am I coming? >> Obviously. >> Is it a destination wedding? People don’t think that we’re actually friends. That was what Remember when you were like when you were like joking with me at the at this show we did about being sweaty and people thought that it was like a greatly offensive thing.

>> Yeah. >> It’s been absolutely amazing having you in Swansea. We will see you very soon. It’s nice to see you. I think you need to have a a shower now. >> I I agree and I’m not offended that you said that. There’s a lot going on and none of it’s good here. >> I do vaguely remember that. Yes, I vaguely remember it because it’s on my TikTok every single day.

It keeps >> No, not still. surf. I thought it might go away. >> No, I I was going to correct people, but I thought it would make it People were like, “No, that’ll make it worse, and he’ll hate that even more.” >> No, I didn’t. I don’t I didn’t hate it. I quite enjoyed being cancelled for fun. >> It’s the funniest way to be cancelled, right? >> For like making a joke about me being sweaty after a very sweaty performance.

>> Yeah, but look, you love a bit. >> It was a bit. >> There’s nothing I love more than a bit, >> right? It was a hot day. It was a and you said >> it’s >> Yeah, it’s not. >> Okay. Once and for all. Okay. >> By the way, thanks for the invite to the wedding. >> You’re so welcome. >> I don’t normally like a destination wedding, but for you, I would make an exception.

>> Where’s it going to be? Do we know? >> I will let you know. I’m I’m going to let you know at a different time. >> Okay. Not on the radio. Fine. But it’s a it’s a it’s a yes, please. And thank you. >> But um once and for all, >> were you upset that I told you to go and take a shower? No, it was important.

And also, I had already arrived there on my own. Yes. >> You were just reading my mind as good friends do. >> Right. >> Right. I was not upset. >> Okay. >> I was I actually laughed. >> Okay. >> Like, do you know what I mean? >> Mhm. I know. I knew what you mean. I I I was >> People don’t need to bubble wrap me in their minds as much as they do.

Do you know what I mean? >> I was just I was I keep I kept watching it. I was like, it was out of context. >> I’m a pretty tough broad. And also that wasn’t even weird. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, >> it’s not like I said you smelt. >> No. And you could have and it would have been funny. >> Yeah, but cuz you did. >> Yeah, it was.

>> I was wearing leather. >> Okay. Right. So, Hamlet is who or am I reading too much into all of this? And uh would you did you reread Hamlet before writing the song? >> Didn’t really need to reread it. You kind of get it. I kind of like I I wanted to sprinkle some references in the bridge.

So like the the bridge references kind of >> um some paraphrasing of some some lines from Hamlet. So I did like do a little brush up. But I just love the idea that like you know you you saved me from love driving me mad, right? >> Cuz that’s what happened to Ailia. Spoiler alert. >> Oh is and it will be a spoiler to some people as well.

But that’s the that’s the reference of you drowning as well on the front cover and all the rest of it. It’s a it’s a it’s a brilliant a brilliant brilliant brilliant album. >> Thank you. Thank you for appreciating that the album color cover is a reference to the famous Oilia painting which then ends up being referenced in the music video which ends up there’s more references to this painting.

Um I directed the music video which was so fun to write and direct and it’s um it’s actually debuting in theaters. >> Yes, it is. >> It’s cinemas. So >> cinemas, >> cinemas, >> the cinemas or as you would say in the old days, the flicks or the pictures, >> the picture show the pictures. The picture shows >> the pictures.

>> Um, we have some uh wonderful radio and listeners who are also your fans who just wanted to send a few messages to you. So can I play you these and see what you make of these? Because when obviously when people found out you’re on the Breakfast Show, they were going they were going to say. >> Yeah, they have things to say.

>> Fantastic. If I could say anything to Taylor, I think I’d be like, “How, how do you do it? >> How’d you do it?” Simple question. How do you do it? >> That’s a really beautiful question to ask somebody. My god. Um, that’s first of all, just like thank you for the tone of that. Thank you for the the the lovely um >> the way that you asked that.

It was like very nice. >> That’s lovely Emma. >> Um, lovely Emma. I’m I mean I really I’m very lucky to get to do what I love. I really love making music. I love the fact that I’m lucky enough for people to care about it enough to me to make these like sort of Easter egg sort of zodiac weird cryptic hinting that I have started to do with my fans.

>> Yeah. >> The fact that I can do that is because they actually care about lyrics. So we can we can kind of play and have fun with the way we release music. And so, um, how is the fact that you guys have been nice enough to care about the music at all for me to be able to have this much fun with the way I get to put it out? >> I really care about the lyrics as well.

>> Thank you. >> I mean, there’s so the the lyrics of in wood, >> a lot of them I can’t My favorite lyrics I can’t really talk about, >> but the the opening of the thighs. >> Uh, Father Figure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that was a fun one to write. >> Yeah. >> And and we love a song with a key change.

Father Figure was in um what’s the show? Was it Baby Girl? The Nicole Gibbon thing. Did you get it from that? Did you think >> No, we had we had written it before then. We had actually written it before then, but it was kind of I thought I thought it was kind of fun. Like a fun coincidence. >> Yeah, that was great >> because it’s a very different way of using the idea of a father figure to kind of >> talk about power power structures and the flipping of the power dynamics and >> Yeah.

Well, I I can’t say Well, I’m just going to say it. The dick’s bigger bit I loved. >> I mean, you got to say the whole line. It’s like I can make deals with the devil because you know >> my dick’s bigger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that >> those aren’t I’m paraphrasing. >> Pretty proud of pretty proud of that line. >> Um in Ailia keep it 100. Just love that.

Just nice. >> Keep it 100 on the land, the sea, the sky. >> But that’s you and that’s you and big trav3. >> Yeah. >> Lovely. >> Yeah. Right. 87 + >> 13 equals 100. So numerology again. >> Uh and in opite we say opalite opalite. Opolite. Um the uh it’s is it is it wrong to say weirdly kind of Christmy? >> Feels very sparkly.

Like very sparkly and beautiful and Christmassy. I likely twinkly. That’s so sweet. I really like that. >> Yeah. And it’s positive, which is we tend to uh gravitate towards positive Christmas music, don’t we? >> Yeah. Are you you’re a Sagge, aren’t you? Yeah. Me, too. It’s your 13. I’m 17 in December. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Sheila’s next.

>> Hi, I’m Sheila. Yeah. In fact, I said one thing to Taylor, it would be the I think of the ears tour every single day. That was unbelievable. >> Oh, I’m so happy to hear that. >> Such a nice >> I think about it every day, too. >> I had so much fun on that tour. It was the obviously the most exhausting challenge ever physically, but um you know, I’ll never forget seeing what I saw.

I could see everyone from the stage, you know. I don’t think they know that. I have incredible vision. >> Well, they’ve been done, haven’t they? >> Uh yeah, I’ve gotten LASIC. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so I can see I could see miles past >> the stadium. And so it was like I could see their experience and their joy and that fed me like that fueled me even when I was exhausted and tired.

>> But I bet you don’t I was going to say I bet you don’t miss the the regime and the exhaustion. >> So good right now. Like my joints are good. >> She’s back baking and she’s happy. >> I’m I b I have hobbies again. I could only do the eras tour when I was on the tour and that’s two years of just having having no other hobbies.

>> Yeah. So now I have the hobbies again as you can see. >> Let’s have one from Jason. >> Making it everyone’s problem. >> No, this is not a problem. I will be eating this. >> Okay, good. It’s I’m pretty I’m pretty sure it’s going to be really good. >> It’s Jason and if I could speak to Taylor, I would say how much she means to me.

Um I was so fortunate enough to go to the tour, which was one of the best moments of my life and just want to say that I love her so much and I’m so grateful that she exists and I’m so happy that um she’s releasing new music and making the world a better place. That is the sweetest. >> Good old Jason. >> Thank you, Jason. >> It’s very sweet.

>> That’s so lovely. I, you know, the fact that you could ever be a part of something like the ERS tour, like for me, it feels like such an honor that the fans made it into what it was because it was truly astonishing for all of us who were on that tour. We were like, what is going on? >> What it turned into something very quickly that we that exceeded any of our expectations for what the tour could have been.

So, the fact that it meant something to you like that, it’s uh it’s just a wonderful walk down memory lane >> and probably one of those things that you can appreciate a bit of it in the moment, but really you need some distance. >> No, I really did appreciate it in the moment. Like I knew I knew it was crazy what was happening.

We have never had anything happen like that. I’ve been with my band for a very long time. Like my my crew, my touring family, my team, we’re all very close and have been forever. And none of us have ever had anything like that happen. We all were looking at each other the whole time going, “This is absolutely nuts.” >> Have you got the itch for another something soon? >> No.

No. I’m just I’m going to be really honest with you. Like I I I am so tired. Like when I think about doing it again because I would want to do it really really well again. >> Yeah, of course. >> You know, >> Taylor, it’s been such a treat. I mean, so I could talk to you for hours and you know, one day we’ll do a proper sit down. Maybe just in a pub would be nice.

>> That would be so good. >> We don’t have to record it. >> Yeah, we don’t have to. >> We don’t have to record every chat. record it. Oh my gosh. >> But I wanted to just get a definitive answer on the on the versions, right? Because the Masters thing is a huge success and congratulations on owning all your music.

>> Thank you. >> Um, first of all, I want to say thanks cuz I’m actually the CEO of Shamrock Capital. Uh, no one knew that. >> Thank you so much. I’m so glad. I’m so glad I figured out finally. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, thank you uh for the deal. >> No, it was it was an amazing thing. like they they were they were so great to to make that deal with me because they never had to sell my music to me.

They never had to do that. >> But it gave radio presenters across the world a dilemma. >> Which one are we playing? >> Whichever one you want. >> Well, look, what we did is when we when we we celebrated the news, we went we went bananas, by the way. Oh, thank you. We were like, we’re free. We can play all the versions.

>> Thank you so much. >> Because whenever we played >> a Taylor’s version, all the listeners would go, “That better be Taylor’s version.” >> Oh my god. Of course it is. Thank you. >> They got your back. >> Yes. And I appreciate that so much because that’s partially probably what got this done. >> But so have I.

So I was like, of course I’m going to play the Taylor’s version. But now >> Thank you. Now you can play anything you want. >> But we’ve been playing both at the same time. >> So look, >> what’s that like? >> Okay. Ready? >> Oh my god. >> I got to get it right. >> Oh my god. >> There we go. So that’s that’s both. Can you hear that? >> See, I’m so proud of this.

>> I mean, it’s it’s like the same. >> I’ll go between the two. Ready? That’s what people say. That’s what people say. >> Oh, nice. >> See? Yeah, I crushed this. >> They’re the same. >> Look at this. >> I’m I’m always going to look back on this time and be like, >> we just redid everything. >> Yeah. So, well, >> can you can you tell the difference? Which one to play now? >> No, I can’t tell.

That’s younger. >> I can’t tell. >> Ter’s version. >> No, it’s the same. >> Anyway, >> it’s the same. >> Yeah, >> I’m so stoked about that whole process, right? Like the whole process of >> of actually, you know, like there’s a lot of stuff that I never speak out about, right? Like people try to provoke me all the time, right? Because it would be valuable for someone to like get under my skin, have me clap back, then they get like I don’t know what you get like a bunch of followers out of it.

It’s like I’m not interested. >> Like the shower thing. >> No, not that. >> What if you were just rage baiting on purpose followers? Yeah. Got you. >> Um but um with this I I was like, you know what? I don’t speak up about many things. I I but I’m this matters to me. This whole thing actually matters to me. And I feel like if I talked about it, people in the industry might learn from it.

And it the way it played out um it was really infuriating at times, but the way that has all culminated in sort of there being more awareness for artists about their ownership >> and and then I got I I got it back. I got to buy my music back. Like it’s it’s um >> it’s still pretty crazy that >> all all or any of that happened. >> It’s it’s a great >> I’m very grateful.

>> But it’s a great thing, but it will inspire other artists and and other people just to make sure that the thing they’ve the thing that they’ve made they are they are in charge of. That’s >> it matters to them. Like they don’t you don’t have to care about this, but maybe look look into it and see if you care about it.

If you care about it, like try to try to get that to happen. >> It’s nice that you’re leading it as well. I think that’s such a nice thing. Thanks. >> Yeah, it’s cool. >> Thanks. >> Well, look, it’s been a pleasure as always. >> Thank you so much for having me on and um and just over the years just being so supportive, being so lovely.

Um and I really I really just have loved coming to check in with you. And congrats on the book. >> Thank you. >> And and the wedding. >> And the wedding. Hey, look at us. We’re all grown up. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. It’s cool. Um >> my invite got lost. >> Oh, it was I’m joking. It’s a joke. >> Well, look, if I get married again, you’re first on the list.

No, no, but you never >> If you renew your vows. >> Sorry, I should have said that first. >> If you renew your vows. There we go. We got it. >> Got the plane rerouted to land at the right spot. >> Thank you. Should we play one of your live lounges and let you go? >> Me, too. We must. >> What do you want then? Do you want You need to calm down.

Do you want to shake it off? Do you want Riptide? Do you want to do Lover? >> Uh, what you feeling? >> Oh god. Um, Riptide or Lover? Either one were those those were fun. Well, as I’m maybe maybe maybe it works playing both at the same time. Maybe that’s maybe No, it might do. It might. >> No one wants it. No one wants both. >> No.

>> Oh, lovely. Oh, yeah. >> It’s not bad, actually. >> It’s not bad. [Music] [Music] >> Hang on. Fade it in slowly. I’m Max Martin now. >> This is not what Max Martin does. >> Hey, come on. >> That was great. I didn’t expect it to to go so well. >> Taylor, we’ll see you soon. Thanks so much. >> Yeah, thank you so much.

QQ4 Bob Dylan and Keith Richards have been close friends for nearly 40 years. The friendship began on a live television program in November of 1986 in the 11 seconds after Bob Dylan called Keith Richards music derivative on camera. Keith Richard’s response to that assessment, one sentence said without anger, without performance, with the specific directness of a man who has nothing to prove and knows it made Bob Dylan laugh.

Then made Bob Dylan go quiet. then made Bob Dylan say two words that people who know Bob Dylan say he almost never said to anyone. This is the story of those 11 seconds and the 40 years that followed them. The program was a live music interview special broadcast on an American network on the evening of November 3rd, 1986. The format was simple.

Two musicians, a host, an hour of conversation about music and the state of it. The producers had assembled the pairing of Bob Dylan and Keith Richards with the specific calculation of television producers who understand that two people with equally strong and potentially incompatible views about what music is and what it should do will produce better television than two people who agree about everything.

The calculation was correct, though not in the way the producers had anticipated. Bob Dylan was 45 years old in November of 1986. Bob Dylan had released Empire Burlesque the previous year and had been on the road for most of the intervening period as part of the True Confessions tour with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

Bob Dylan was in November of 1986 in one of the most prolific and restless phases of a career that had consisted almost entirely of prolific and restless phases. A career that had moved through folk, rock, country, gospel, and back again, that had been declared finished at least six times by the music press, and at each time continued with the serene indifference of a river to the opinions of people standing on its banks.

Bob Dylan had been redefining what music could be. Since 1962, Bob Dylan had invented and reinvented himself so many times that reinvention had become his defining characteristic, not in the superficial sense of a performer changing costumes, but in the deeper sense of a musician who had never allowed his work to settle into a form that could be anticipated or categorized from the outside.

Bob Dylan understood influence and originality and the relationship between them better than almost anyone alive in 1986. Bob Dylan had spent 24 years thinking carefully and specifically about where music came from and where music was going and what it meant that those two things were always in constant conversation with each other.

Keith Richards was 42 years old in November of 1986. Keith Richards had been playing guitar professionally since 1962. Keith Richards had built a career on a foundation of American blues and rhythm and blues. A foundation that Keith Richards had studied with the systematic devotion of someone who understood that the tradition he was building on was not incidental to the music he was making, but essential to it.

that you could not understand what Keith Richards did without understanding where Keith Richards had come from and what Keith Richards had been listening to since he was a teenager in Dartford with American Import Records and a secondhand guitar and no teacher except the recordings themselves. Keith Richards had never pretended otherwise. Keith Richards had in fact spent considerable energy across his career making the lineage explicit, naming the artists, citing the recordings, insisting on the acknowledgement of influence that the mainstream music

industry had a long history of suppressing or ignoring or crediting to the wrong people. If anything, Keith Richards was more transparent about his sources than most musicians of his generation. Keith Richards had always said openly that the Rolling Stones came directly from the blues, that Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson and the specific tradition of the Mississippi Delta were not background influences, but foundational ones.

The music Keith Richards made was in direct and sustained conversation with that tradition, something Keith Richards considered not a limitation, but a responsibility and a form of respect. The interview had been running for 8 minutes when the host asked Bob Dylan about the current state of rock and roll.

Bob Dylan answered with the density and the indirection that characterized Bob Dylan’s responses to direct questions, turning the question over, approaching it from an unexpected angle, finding his way to what he actually thought through a series of observations that moved like a river rather than a road. Bob Dylan was not a straightforward interview subject.

Bob Dylan had been asked about rock and roll in hundreds of interviews across 24 years and had developed the habit of treating the question as an invitation to think out loud rather than a request for a prepared position. The producer Gerald Sherman said afterward that in the first 8 minutes of the interview, he had been slightly anxious, not because anything was going wrong, but because nothing was going anywhere in particular yet.

The interview had the feeling of two conversations happening simultaneously. Bob Dylan’s internal one and the external one visible to the cameras. And Gerald Sherman was not certain in those first eight minutes that the two conversations would converge into something. Bob Dylan talked about influence. Bob Dylan talked about originality.

Bob Dylan talked about the difference between music that absorbed a tradition and transformed it and music that absorbed a tradition and reproduced it. And then Bob Dylan made his assessment. And then Bob Dylan said with the precision of a man making a musical assessment rather than a personal judgment that the Rolling Stones work, and Bob Dylan was specific, naming Keith Richards as the guitarist whose approach he was discussing was derivative in a way that Bob Dylan found limiting.

Bob Dylan said it without hostility. Bob Dylan said it as a technical observation about the relationship between source material and the work that came from it. Bob Dylan said that Keith Richards played the blues the way the blues had already been played, rather than using the blues as a starting point for something that had not yet been played.

Keith Richards had been listening to this with the specific attention Keith Richards gave to things being said about music by people who knew music. Keith Richards did not interrupt. Keith Richards did not shift in his chair or display any of the visible signals of a person preparing a defensive response. Keith Richards listened to Bob Dylan’s complete observation all the way to its conclusion without interrupting and without displaying any visible signal of preparing a response.

Then Keith Richards said one sentence. The sentence was not a rebuttal. The sentence did not defend Keith Richards music or argue for its originality or challenge Bob Dylan’s characterization of what the blues meant in the context of rock and roll. The sentence was something else entirely, something that required a specific kind of confidence to say.

The confidence of a person who has spent long enough thinking about the same things as the person they are talking to that they can locate the exact point where their thinking diverges and say something useful about that point rather than simply defending their own position. The sentence acknowledged everything Bob Dylan had said, the assessment, the distinction Bob Dylan was drawing, the specific musical concern underlying the observation, and then turned it 90°.

Keith Richards took Bob Dylan’s own framework, the one Bob Dylan had used to analyze Keith Richards relationship to the blues tradition, and applied it back to Bob Dylan’s work with the same precision Bob Dylan had used to apply it to Keith Richards. Spare aimed. The sentence asked Bob Dylan something about Bob Dylan’s own music, about the relationship between Bob Dylan’s sources and Bob Dylan’s output that Bob Dylan had not been asked on television before.

The sentence did not attack. The sentence illuminated. Bob Dylan laughed. The laugh was not the polite laugh of someone responding to a joke. The laugh was the involuntary laugh of someone who has been genuinely surprised. The specific kind of surprise that a person of exceptional intelligence experiences when someone else’s intelligence exceeds their expectations.

Bob Dylan laughed for 4 seconds. Then Bob Dylan stopped laughing. Then Bob Dylan was quiet for 3 seconds in the way that Bob Dylan was quiet when Bob Dylan was thinking rather than performing thought. Then Bob Dylan said, “You’re right.” The producer in the booth, a man named Gerald Sherman, who had been working in television for 14 years, said afterward that in 14 years of live television production, he had never heard Bob Dylan say those two words in a public forum.

Gerald Sherman said he had worked with Bob Dylan on two previous occasions and had observed Bob Dylan in numerous other contexts and that you’re right was not a phrase that Bob Dylan deployed easily or often because Bob Dylan had spent 24 years being right about music in ways that other people eventually caught up with. And the experience of being right ahead of everyone else does not generally produce a man who says you’re right readily when someone else makes a point.

The host of the program, a journalist named Patricia Wells, who had been interviewing musicians for 12 years, said afterward that the 11 seconds between Bob Dylan’s assessment and Bob Dylan saying, “You’re right,” were the most extraordinary 11 seconds of television she had been present for. Patricia Wells said that what she witnessed in those 11 seconds was not a debate or a confrontation or a celebrity exchange of competing opinions.

Patricia Wells said what she witnessed was one musician recognizing another musician as an equal, which was in the specific context of Bob Dylan in 1986, not something that happened in public very often. The interview continued for another 42 minutes after those 11 seconds. The conversation between Bob Dylan and Keith Richards in the remaining 42 minutes was described by everyone who watched it as fundamentally different from the first 8 minutes.

The host, Patricia Wells, who had been conducting music interviews for 12 years and understood the difference between the performance of conversation and actual conversation, said that at approximately the 9-minute mark, something shifted in the studio. That the formal interview, architecture dissolved, and what replaced it was something less structured and more genuine.

Bob Dylan and Keith Richards talked about influence and originality and the blues and what it meant to build on a tradition without being consumed by it. They talked about specific recordings and specific musicians with the specificity of two people who had spent their entire adult lives thinking about these things and rarely found another person who had thought about them with equivalent care.

They talked about where music came from and where music was going and whether those two questions were actually one question or two. Patricia Wells said afterward that she had asked approximately four questions in the remaining 42 minutes because Bob Dylan and Keith Richards did not require questions. They required only a room and a camera and the shared understanding that what they were saying together was worth recording carefully.

She said it was the best interview she had ever conducted and that she had conducted the smallest part of it. After the program, Bob Dylan and Keith Richards were in the corridor outside the studio when the host Patricia Wells passed them. Patricia Wells said she did not stop because she did not want to interrupt.

She observed them for approximately 30 seconds from a distance. She said they were talking with the ease of people who had known each other for years rather than people who had met for the first time 2 hours earlier. She said that something had shifted between them during the broadcast that the broadcast had made permanent rather than temporary.

She continued down the corridor and did not look back. She said in her account of that evening that she had decided in that moment not to interrupt the conversation because some conversations are more valuable than any question a journalist might ask and that the conversation she had observed for 30 seconds in the corridor outside the studio was one of them.

She had been a music journalist for 12 years. She recognized the difference. Bob Dylan and Keith Richards have maintained their friendship across four decades. They have appeared together at various events, most significantly at the concert for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1995, where people who were present described them as inseparable for most of the evening, occupying the same corner of the backstage area and talking with the concentrated attention of people who only have a limited amount of time together and intend to use it

well. Bob Dylan has spoken about Keith Richards in interviews with the specific thoughtful care that Bob Dylan reserves for musicians whose work Bob Dylan considers genuinely important rather than merely culturally prominent. Keith Richards has spoken about Bob Dylan in similar terms with the specific respect of someone who recognizes in another person a commitment to music that goes deeper than career.

Neither Bob Dylan nor Keith Richards has made a public statement specifically about how the friendship began or about the November 1986 interview. Bob Dylan has not mentioned the 11 seconds. Keith Richards has not mentioned the sentence. The interview exists in the archive. The 11 seconds are there. The laugh is there. The two words are there.

What is also there for anyone who watches the interview from its beginning and pays attention to the shift that happens at the 9-minute mark is the specific moment when two people who thought they were appearing on a television program discovered they were actually talking to each other. What Keith Richards said in that one sentence has never been officially reported.

The people who were in the studio that evening, Gerald Sherman, Patricia Wells, the floor crew, the two camera operators, the makeup artist who was watching from the side of the set, have described the sentence in consistent terms. They have described its effect. They have described Bob Dylan’s laugh and Bob Dylan’s silence and Bob Dylan’s two words.

They have not repeated the sentence itself in the specific understanding that the sentence was said between two musicians on a television program and that its power resided in the specific context of that exchange and would not survive removal from it intact. What can be said is this. Keith Richards said something to Bob Dylan about Bob Dylan’s music that used Bob Dylan’s own observation about Keith Richards as its starting point and arrived somewhere that Bob Dylan had not anticipated.

Keith Richards turned Bob Dylan’s assessment 90° and showed Bob Dylan something about the music they had both spent their lives making that Bob Dylan recognized immediately as true. And Bob Dylan said, “You’re right.” Two words said by Bob Dylan in public on live television in 1986 to Keith Richards in response to a single sentence Keith Richards had said about music.

Two words that Gerald Sherman, who had worked with Bob Dylan on two previous occasions, said he had never heard Bob Dylan say in a public forum. Two words that Patricia Wells, who had been interviewing musicians for 12 years, said were the most significant two words she had heard in those 12 years. Not because of their content, but because of who said them and what it cost to say them and what it meant that Keith Richards had produced them in 11 seconds from a conversation that began with Bob Dylan calling Keith Richards’s music derivative. And Keith Richards and

Bob Dylan have been close friends for nearly 40 years. The sentence did its work in 11 seconds on the evening of November 3rd, 1986. The work has been ongoing ever since. If this story moved you, subscribe and leave a comment below. Have you ever said something to someone that turned a potential disagreement into an unexpected and lasting connection? Tell us about it in the comments below.

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