Secret recordings? How the late Queen feared Harry and Meghan leaks | The Daily T –  Hw

Royal expert Hugo Vickers met the late Queen over 40 times and he joins us in the studio to talk about his new biography of her. What was her marriage to Prince Philip really like? What’s the truth behind giving Andrew that money to settle with Virginia Giuffre? And why did the Queen suspect the Sussexes were miked up on one visit to see her? Hugo lifts the lid on life behind palace gates during the reign of Elizabeth II.

What was her issue with Meghan? Well, I mean it’s obvious what her issue with was, but I mean the point is that you know they could It’s not Sorry, it’s not. >> Well, trust has been broken, basically. And so I think, you know, as far as you know, having somebody in the room, I think certainly there’s one time it’s to stop them taking photographs or being wired or God knows what they were up to.

We have in the Daily Telegraph studio today Hugo Vickers, author extraordinaire, royal expert. You’ve written many, many books. This enormous tome, Queen Elizabeth II, a personal history, I assume, Hugo, is the culmination of many, many years’ work. Uh yes, I sort of claim of 60 years of work because I started very early. I mean the Queen My mother took me to see the Queen and the Shah of Persia in the state procession in the Mall in 1959 and I enjoyed it so much that I insisted on being taken out of school to see General de Gaulle the following year. What was

interesting about his his ride up the Mall was at a certain point he suddenly stood up and saluted his old office, 4 Carlton Gardens, where he where he’d been during the war. And so years later, I was the Queen came to unveil a walkway panel in the Mall and I asked her whether my memory was right and she said, “Yes, with me very much trying to persuade him not to.

” Really? >> Because as you can imagine, the thought of an enormous general standing up in an open carriage was the last thing you wanted, really. >> course. >> fall out. Timmy, we’re thumbing through some of the photographs. Yes, I was just looking through some of the photos in the book you younger in 1979 with the Queen at a children’s party.

This is based upon your private diaries, I believe. And >> Well, quite a lot, yes, because what I found was that thank goodness when I first started being a writer and I was writing writing a book about a woman called Gladys Deacon, Duchess of Marlborough. A lot of people told me things which were fascinating but didn’t really they weren’t relevant to the book.

So I started keeping a diary and I kept writing things in and thank goodness I did because I don’t know about you, we all forget so much. >> Oh, yes. >> And so there’s a lot of you know, conversations with people who knew the Queen and indeed the Queen herself sometimes and other members of the royal family all went to the diaries and so I I’ve got one of the sources was my own diary.

And you met her on over 40 occasions. Um yes, and saw her, of course, many, many more times than that, but the first time I met her was in St. George’s Chapel when I was a school guide there in 1968 when she came to look at the little tomb house being built where they’re now all buried. And she she just came round the corner with Prince Edward held by the hand and there was a sort of what seemed like a very long silence and then she said, “Are you a chapel guide?” Well, I had a thing on me saying chapel guide, so she was on to a winner there.

>> >> But the Queen Mother then came round the corner a second later and said, “And who are you?” So I said, “Hugo Vickers, ma’am.” She said, “Oh, yes.” And so for weeks afterwards, I I wondered had the Dean told the Queen Mother we would meet? No, of course not. That was just her way of making a 16-year-old feel happy.

How How does a journalist gain access to or win the confidence of a royal? Gradually. Patiently. Patiently, gradually. And I think I suppose that you know, over the years, you know, the things that I’ve written here and there, they they read and they begin to trust you. Actually, my first job, which was fascinating, in this world when when my sort of passion and interest got harnessed, was actually working with the great Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd, who is a famous Telegraph figure, is later on the obituary editor who revolutionized

obituaries. And he did a book called Burke’s Guide to the Royal Family, which is a very useful reference book. And I was sent off to do all the standard reference biographies of all the royal family living at the time. Now you’d get it all off the royal website, but in those days, I actually went to all the offices and I even to the Duke of Windsor’s house in Paris and I met Anne Hawkins, who was the Queen’s assistant press secretary and she rather adopted me and you know, I I found one or two mistakes in the documents they were putting out

and things. So gradually in in that sense, I suppose, you know, I became trusted and she was really helpful and as the years went by, there were one or two royal household figures who you know, used to say they sort of created me and I Yeah, happy to be Have you delivered that? Um when you got up close and personal, so to speak, with the Queen, how did you find her? I think what’s interesting about Elizabeth II is on one hand the most photographed and probably best-known woman on Earth both in life and in death and yet on the

other, elusive, somewhat misunderstood. What was she actually like, Hugo? Well, the funny thing is I I risk saying I was never frightened of the Queen for some reason. Um a lot of people are. A lot of people are pulverized into silence and I don’t know what it was, but there was something that made me feel that I could occasionally say something to her of interest.

Now, the interesting thing about the Queen was that she loved catching people out. One of her favorite questions was delivered, by the way, with great theatrical timing, “Are you sure?” Really? Uh well, you better >> That is quite scary, actually. >> Yes, very scary. She’d used it on ministers and things. Of course, she’d read the document.

If they hadn’t done their research, you know, she liked catching them out. I think Prince Philip loved catching people as well. He particularly hated company chairmen who delivered slick speeches and really didn’t know what they were talking about in factories and things like that, you know, people who had swaned in. He hated those people. I luckily I learned that.

But as we are going back to the Queen, so you know, so so for example, she had the most amazing random access to facts and there was one occasion when I there was a funeral and in one of our relations and I was there for some reason and there was reception of Commonwealth and Lodge and she came over to talk to me and and I said, “Oh, this is really interesting because Prince William is going to New Zealand and the Maori King is refusing to meet him because he hasn’t been given long enough time.

And isn’t it interesting because when you went to New Zealand in 1953, Sidney Holland wouldn’t let you meet that particular Maori King, his predecessor.” And the Queen said immediately, “Well, you know, he’s only a bus driver in everyday life.” >> >> How did she know that? I mean, it wasn’t coming up, you know. Yes.

And and she could always come out with an anecdote or something to you know, to back up a story if you you know, if you talked to her. But one time I was very lucky to sit the only time I actually sat next to her at dinner with the Carnarvons at Milford Lake House. There were seven people there only and I was writing the book about Prince Philip’s mother and I found myself explaining to the Queen the nature of her illness and how she came out of it.

And that was really fascinating, as you can imagine. And of course, if you were able to interest the Queen, as indeed her grandmother Queen Mary, you would have her full attention. I would suspect that you know, if you ceased to interest her or you weren’t there, you didn’t exist. So if I saw the Queen, she talked to me as if we saw each other every day, but the rest of time I didn’t exist at all, you know.

And I didn’t And I didn’t have any sort of particular access to her or anything. It was only just when I ran into her here and there. But she she seemed to be a scary figure, maybe because of her rather austere and serious appearance on stamps and money. But in real life, so to speak, Hugo, a softer character, one with a sense of humor? I mean, when I met her briefly at a Jubilee reception at Buckingham Palace, what surprised me about her is how smiley she was and easygoing she seemed.

Well, the smiling is is very interesting, I think. Going back to the Queen Mother, if you made the Queen Mother laugh, I think you might be wrong to assume you had amused her because she was an actress and she would respond automatically. If you could make the Queen laugh, you could be absolutely certain you had because otherwise she wouldn’t.

And I rather liked that. She was an executive woman. You know, she was an executive. So so if you could get that grand piano smile, gosh, that was so rewarding. She did have a wonderful smile. She had a wonderful complexion, too, didn’t she? >> She did. Very good skin. All the royals have good skin. >> Yes, they do.

Is it because they’ve never been down mines? Well, of course, they’ve probably been down more mines than we have. Well, >> >> they they probably have on visits. Opening ribbons on mines. described her life as relatively simple. What did you mean by that? Well, I think what she she was very grounded, you know, she she liked to walk her dogs, feed her dogs, she famously Tupperware and all that stuff and and you know, she she watched the news on the television and she read the Daily Telegraph and you know, she listened to the radio at certain times

and all those things. So I think >> just stop there? She read the Daily Telegraph. I know we have, but it’s it’s good to remind ourselves of this. >> It’s very important. Okay, well, yes, I think I think it’s a >> about my Megxit coverage and what she might have made of it, but we’ll get onto that in just a moment, Hugo.

>> All right, but the thing is that I think that Yes, I think that she was You see, she was two different people. She was the Queen and the woman inside the Queen. So sometimes, for example, if there was a problem, some private secretary produced a document, she would look at it and she would say, “What should the Queen do?” In other words, a bit like what should a mother or a father do? You know, you might want to say, “Oh, we all did that.

” But occasionally you have to bang the table and say, “Unacceptable.” And I think that was very interesting about her. >> what not what would she like to do. But what should someone in my office Yes, what should the Queen do? What is the right thing for the Queen to do? And then she would do it. And so for example, it’s actually rather fascinating sort of saga with Idi Amin that I unearthed, which was that Idi Amin wrote to The Queen used to have to meet all these mass murderers and things the whole time. She had him to lunch once,

but he invited her to um As you do. to come out to Uganda for the 10th anniversary of independence. Of course, she wasn’t going to go, but she asked the foreign secretary for formal advice as to how to reply. And the Foreign Office picked away at these different things and the first message was, I send to you and the people of Uganda my best wishes on this auspicious occasion.

And a subtle foreign office hand said, I I send through you to the people of Uganda, etc. Right. >> Yes. Right. Right. Interesting. And she would always do that. I mean, the difference between, as you as you know, a sort of constitutional monarch, if they if the Prime Minister gives the Queen gave the Queen official advice, formal advice, she was obliged to take it.

But if she advised him, he wasn’t obliged to take it, though he’d do jolly well to listen. But she’s probably talking very good sense. Can you resolve the debate over who her favorite Prime Minister was? I don’t think I think somebody once said this, that she didn’t discriminate between Prime Ministers. And the interesting thing is that um the only thing we know about the relationship between the Queen and her Prime Ministers comes from the Prime Ministers, not from the Queen.

The thing came up the other day with somebody as an American writer writing about the Queen and American Presidents. And Trump has been going around saying he was the favorite President. And I said, well, don’t you think the Queen sent all the Presidents away thinking that? I think maybe Melania was the favorite First Lady of Prince Philip, who very much enjoyed driving her around in his Range Rover from memory during Trump 1.0.

I was intrigued to read about Well, there’s a line in the book where you say that obviously the Queen noted Cherie Blair’s reluctance to curtsy. And the Queen Mother was going around in the background going, “Stiff knees, stiff knees.” >> That’s right. Quite funny. But but the the what you probably maybe didn’t know before the book is that when the Blairs went to say goodbye to the Queen when he stepped down as Prime Minister, Cherie Blair came downstairs saying, “And I curtsied to her.” And I thought, yep, the Queen

wins in the end. Yes, the Queen always wins. And it’s so Sorry, sorry. Sorry, I’m sort of interrupting, but I was interested because we’d got state visit coming up to, if it happens, you know, in America. >> Yes, indeed. And Tony Crosland as a Labour MP Labour Foreign Secretary went with the Queen.

And he wore black tie at the white tie state banquet given by Gerald Ford. And apparently he was perfectly happy to wear white tie, but he’d worn a black tie at the Giscard state banquet in London. So diplomatically it would have been the most incredible faux pas and insult to the French if he then put on a white tie. So these stupid Sorry.

No, nothing wrong with that. Be honest, Hugo. These these Labour politicians and their wives sometimes like to make a point. And I think it sort of ties them up in knots, frankly. We all We all fondly remember Jeremy Corbyn donning white tie for the visit of President Xi. >> >> Because of course he was quite happy to wine and dine a fellow communist.

Um the other observation you make in the book at that turbulent period at really that kind of characterized the end of the Queen’s reign, unfortunately. Turbulence with Brexit, being asked to prorogue Parliament by Boris Johnson, then leading into COVID, then of course with Megxit mixed in and indeed illness, her own illness and her beloved husband’s illness.

Uh is just that relationship with Boris Johnson a degree of consternation over whether Carrie, who was then not married to the Prime Minister, should be invited to Balmoral. But I’ve always been intrigued by the relationship between the Queen and Boris Johnson. I wrote a piece once suggesting that Boris Johnson made the King, now King, then Prince of Wales rather uncomfortable, but the Queen got on with him quite well.

And equally he looked to her as a bit of a mother figure because at the time his own mother was in ill health and died. I don’t know what you know about their relationship, Hugo. I don’t know very much except that of course what was very interesting was that two days before the Queen died she gave him very sound advice about how to comport himself as a as an ousted Prime Minister.

You know, don’t be bitter, you know, go forward, that sort of thing. That’s the sort of thing she was really good at. I think she was incredibly supportive to her Prime Ministers but simple reason that she was there by hereditary you know, by accident of birth, and they were elected. So she would always deal with the elected man. And I think you would have been a very very unwise person to insult an incumbent Prime Minister in the presence of the Queen.

She would always support him or her. Yes. I always feel sorry for Presidents because who have they got to talk to apart from their stockbroker or their priest? Yes. >> But as a Prime Minister had this Yes. this woman who had been there for decades, seen it all before, and knew exactly the right thing to say. >> And they all said that, didn’t they? I mean, the ones who’ve talked have all said that you know, apart from I mean, Blair even said, you know, apart from his wife, who could he talk to but the Queen because it would go no further.

There’s no record kept, you know, of those meetings. So they can unburden themselves. And of course with her incredible experience she can you could advise him, well, you you say this happened, but you know, 20 years ago we this is how we dealt with it. Over to you. Deal with it as you will. Because I’d love to have been there when she subtly mentioned to Blair when he arrived that she’d been seeing state papers longer than his entire life.

Yes, that would have gone down well. Is it problematic, Hugo? And it’s almost as if her reign is represented by this book. You’ve chronicled her life from beginning to end, and I would say 9/10 of this is taken up with the highs and lows of her 75-year reign. And yet even today there remains an obsession about the final years because they were so turbulent.

So we have the annus horribilis, fair enough. We have 1997 and Princess Diana’s death. These are kind of landmark royal moments. But then we also have the 2020s onwards. The last few years of her being alive marred with controversy. Okay, politics, Brexit, COVID, but Megxit. And it’s probably frustrating to you that when the newspapers have thumbed through your book and looked for salacious headlines, they do largely focus on Harry and Meghan.

Well, with great respect journalists have very short memories. >> I know we do. We’re terrible. Okay. Historians and biographers do try to look at the whole picture. But actually, you know, you make a very fair point. But what was interesting to me as I went through her life was this extraordinary euphoria in 1981 at the Charles and Diana wedding.

>> Yes. And it really couldn’t be sustained. I mean, that to begin with and I mean, I lived right through all this. And so to begin with of course there’s great excitement and everybody thought it would sort of calm down and it didn’t. And the press, as you know, build people up and then they try and knock them down.

And they couldn’t do it with Diana for a long time. They tried and it failed. And then eventually of course when they realized that things were going wrong, it did work. So you enter this sort of awful phase which goes on and on and on and it’s one thing after another, you know, one divorce after another, one crisis. I mean, you know, even Major Ronald Ferguson has a sort of little excursion to the Wigmore Club and things like that.

I mean, all that stuff. I mean, never stops. >> For the uninitiated. Yes. And and you say she found the Queen found Diana quotes tiresome in the end. Yes, well, again that’s it the whole Diana thing is really complicated. I know it’s very interested in what one of the Queen Mother’s ladies-in-waiting said to me, which was she said, “I could tell you something I saw with my very own eyes at Clarence House.

And I could also steer you towards somebody else who was in the room at the same time who’ll tell you something totally different. So it’s very hard to get that balance right. But um after I mean, I I think it’s the Golden Jubilee was a sort of moment. There was sympathy for the Queen losing her mother and sister and things moved forward a bit.

Really it was only when Charles finally married Camilla that it completely settled down because at that up until as you will well remember, up until the day of the wedding she was the hated mistress. And then whoops, suddenly she’s HRH the Duchess of Cornwall. She’s the supportive wife. And look look at how her, you know, since then hasn’t put a foot wrong. Everybody loves her.

And it was fascinating because up until that point the press was still needling away. But 1997 was difficult. That summer was difficult. Do you think she mishandled things until the famous speaking to you not just as a Queen but as a grandmother speech? Well, what was interesting is that quite a number of members of the Royal Family have died over a bank holiday weekend.

Princess Marina, Lord Mountbatten, Prince William of Gloucester. And in those days it would be a little thing in the paper saying the Queen is breaking off from her holiday and coming down for the funeral. And we all thought, “Wow, you know, that’s amazing. She’s coming down specially to pay the respects.” With Diana this evidently wasn’t good enough.

But of course again from the point of view of the media, it was a very long week. First of all you got the shock of her death, secondly the paparazzi chasing the car, thirdly the drunk chauffeur, and finally where was the Queen? And Martin Charteris, one of her really best private secretaries, he did say to me, he said, “I I think we were a day late.

But as we I tried to say the whole time that she’s looking after her grandchildren.” And we accept that now. But they God, you couldn’t say that at the time. I got my head bitten off left and right. >> Although she rescued it, she did rescue it with that televised address, right? >> I think it’s the only time she was actually forced to change her plan.

And she came down a day before. Then of course, which I know took a lot out of her making that speech. But of course it was live in the Chinese dining room at Buckingham Palace. And whereas, and you know the world of the media better than I do, you know, people are pretty cynical, you know, when Mother Teresa died, well, the nuns died, you know, that sort of stuff.

But oh my goodness, you could have heard a pin drop even in the newsrooms of places like ITN when the Queen was speaking. And of course actually what was wonderful was that the um the British people, the world, they wanted to hear from their Queen. You know, they really did. And so as a mother figure what she was doing was what she was did so brilliantly was trying to tell people, you know, calm down, let’s go through the funeral tomorrow and pay our respects and sort of unite after this difficult time.

>> is the contradiction. She was a mother stroke grandmother of the nation. We remember that during COVID with the we’ll meet again speech, which was probably the best public address by a high-profile figure throughout the entire pandemic. Yes. Remember that speech? She was someone who was to play with her own image like at the Olympics. Yes.

>> James Bond. But at the same time we have this image and let’s get into the Harry and Meghan revelations and also the Andrew ones. So she’s grandmother stroke mother of the nation and yet she has complicated relationships with her own family members. You know, the king accuses her of being a bit too distant.

She’s non-confrontational. Some of the revelations about Harry and Meghan Well, according to Hugo, the late Queen said to a confidant regarding the Sussex’s decision to leave the royal family, quote, “And now Harry has opted out and for what? To be a carer for Archie.” And I put it rather more unkindly.

I say he can’t be he couldn’t be captain general of the Royal Marines while lying barefoot under a tree in California. The Queen actually, if you remember, um did actually give them a year to think it through to see if it was going to work or not and then they could possibly come back. As you know, they didn’t. But I mean, I think it was quite right.

You can’t be half in, half out. And of course the Queen did always do her duty. She saw, let’s face it, what happened to her father when he had to step in when his brother abdicated. He never seen a state paper in his life. And he had a really difficult reign because he had the war in the middle of it and then his health collapsed and things.

And so you know, she was I mean, duty it was very much duty first in her case. And so to see somebody copping out like that must have been immensely disappointing, especially since he was doing a very good job with yes, the Commonwealth and the Invictus Games. She gave the that couple the entire Commonwealth to explore.

And that seemed to be brilliant, didn’t you think at the time? >> Yes, of course. And also he was so good in the Caribbean. You know, there were countries flirting with republicanism. He swept in and persuaded them to keep supporting queen and country. >> I was in the Caribbean and you know, that you were when he was on his what 2016 trip.

And you know, all the people I talked to, which I’ll be honest with, maybe two taxi drivers, but said we love it. He plays He plays cricket with our kids, you know. >> No, that’s right. We had to go on that trip, do you remember, after I broke the Harry’s dating Meghan story and I was trying to avoid him thinking he’d be really angry with me.

Actually he was fine. He he went on to be very angry with me, but that’s another story. >> There was a funny you see you say Hugo that the Queen even suggested that Harry should wait a year before marrying Meghan. And that the Queen would ask her lady-in-waiting to stay with her during phone calls with Prince Harry. Quote, “The distress the Sussex’s caused the Queen in the last years of her life cannot be overestimated.

” What was her issue with Meghan? Well, I mean, it’s obvious what her issue with was, but I mean, the point is that you know, they could It’s not, sorry, it’s not. Well, trust had been broken, basically. And so I think, you know, as far as you know, having somebody in the room, I think certainly it was one time it’s to stop them taking photographs or being wired or god knows what they were up to, you What do you mean, wired for telly? >> Yeah, wired for recording.

>> the Queen thought that they might be wired up to be recording conversations with her for Netflix purposes? It’s always a possibility. I’m not saying it happened. Hugo, but hang on, let’s break this down. What do you actually think, first of all, the Queen thought of Meghan? What do you think her opinion of her was? I don’t know.

I don’t know what she thought of her, but I suspect that she thought less of her as time went on. Because there’s a row over Meghan allegedly being rude to Windsor gardeners. Tell us about that. Well, that I do know to be true. She apparently was rude to one of the under gardeners and the head gardener went up to the Queen and reported this and the Queen got into her car and went down and tore a strip off her.

Cuz you cannot be rude to staff, you know. So she didn’t know how to behave with staff. I mean, you know much more about Meghan Markle than I do. And there’s endless people leaving her employ and so forth. I mean, she was you know, she’d been rude to the gardeners, so she needed to be ticked off, put in her place.

Also there’s a story in the book about Meghan requesting that people didn’t park in a nearby car park next to a sports field because she quotes didn’t want to look at cars from the windows of Frogmore House. Well, you probably know where that car park is. >> I remember we reported it at the time and it was a subject of various denials until we finally realized it was a true story and indeed published it.

Um I didn’t like that one. Are you? You don’t like to I look out the window and see a whole load of cars like people Hugo, don’t you live in a basement flat? You must see car tires literally from your kitchen. Why? Cuz you need them clean. >> All I can see is a fence. It’s like I live behind the Berlin Wall.

Do you know what? I’m going to come round to your house with my method spray. But back to the royals, Hugo. Okay, and then also we have Prince Philip in his own unique style simply referring to Meghan as quotes the American. Yes. What do we read into that, Hugo? We read into it whatever you like. What are you reading into it, Hugo? Cuz I’m getting the impression that the Duke of Edinburgh perhaps saw through Meghan’s You could say that.

I obviously couldn’t comment, but I suspect you’re right. >> Theatrical ways. I don’t know. And then there’s the name of the child. Ah. Well, that was audacious, yes. Audacious? Yes. Wasn’t it rather sweet for them to call their daughter Lilibet after the Queen’s nickname? >> the Queen’s the name that was used by her actual private family.

I know I don’t think so. I mean, no, that’s that’s absolutely shocking. Did they ask the Queen? >> No, they didn’t. No, they didn’t. She said they did, but no, they didn’t. Right. No, the Queen was furious. And the Queen apparently didn’t like Meghan’s very elegant wedding dress. No, well, she’s allowed to have her personal opinions.

I mean, that wedding of course was uh pretty dire, wasn’t it? Was it? Was it not? >> >> Um Well, I I you have a lovely paragraph or two in there about the reactions of the royals to Bishop Curry’s very evangelical sermon. Yeah, it was yeah, it was passionate. >> Did you like it as a Catholic? Uh I did enjoy it. Yes, I did.

And he’s actually an Episcopalian. He’s not even an evangelical. He’s just American. He’s just American. >> Everyone Everyone mistook him being American for being some sort of Bible thumper. He’s really not. >> was broadcasting with NBC that day and we were obviously off air to take in the ceremony live. >> Yes.

And even the Today Show hosts were saying, “This is This is just too much.” >> Okay, well, what frustrates me, speaking to two great royal journalists, is things are sold to us on one occasion as, “This is wonderful.” And then a few months later it’s sold to us as, “That was terrible.” >> >> And behind the scenes we were all saying it was terrible.

Well, make up your minds. >> I quite liked it because I loved the looks that the royals were giving each other. I mean, but the message we >> were told was new blood in the family. She’s going to liven and freshen things up and we’re so happy Harry’s met someone. >> I wrote that. And then we started getting reports that they were both behaving badly in the wedding planning and beyond and that oodles of staff were leaving their positions unhappy and lo and behold, Buckingham Palace was building up a quotes bullying dossier. So yeah, you

hear You know why it all exploded after the wedding. Hugo will agree with me on this. The palace is able to keep a really tight lid on Harry and Meghan’s behavior when it’s only being demonstrated within the palace. >> Yeah. The palace can control it. If you plan a wedding, you bring in all sorts of outside agencies, people involved in choirs, people involved in flower arranging, people involved in da da da, bridesmaids dress fittings.

And then people start to leak stuff because they aren’t being controlled by the palace. And that’s how suddenly the narrative changes and we hear stories about Meghan requesting that you know, the musty smell of St. George’s Chapel is improved with air fresheners. That’s what happens, isn’t it, Hugo? And what about the you know, her Sound of Music Julie Andrews solitary walk up the aisle.

I mean, the whole thing is you get she starts off at Cliveden in a car with her mother. She drops her mother off. She goes down. She does her Julie Andrews walk. She has Prince Charles pick her up at the under the organ screen and go in. Don’t tell me that was the first thing they decided.

There must have been screams and yells and rows about all that till they reached that conclusion. And the other thing of course which is fascinating, slightly diverting from the Queen, but why didn’t Prince Harry meet Mr. Markle? Why do you think? Well, there can only be three reasons if you think of it. One, that she was ashamed of him, which I don’t think is the case.

Two, that he had done something which we don’t know about because actually when Prince Harry one of the interviews said that when he rang up to say could he marry his daughter, Mr. Markle said, “You can as long as you never raise your hand against her.” Well, you don’t You and I don’t live in that world. We don’t live in that Well, maybe he did something.

I don’t think that’s that. I think somebody put it to me and I think it’s much more likely that she was worried that he would warn Prince Harry, “Watch out, you don’t quite know what you’re getting into.” Well, he’d already received that warning from her half sister and brother. But then you could say she might be much maligned.

It was odd that she didn’t have any other relatives there but her mom. >> Indeed. Can we move on to Prince Andrew? If you insist. And we must. I’m sorry, Hugo. It’s an occupational hazard, I’m afraid. What’s your analysis of relationship between the Queen and her so-called favorite son? Was he her favorite? Well, I think the thing is that um so Lord Mountbatten used to go around saying that there was a very good reason why there was a 10-year gap between Charles and Anne and Andrew and Edward, which was that Prince Philip wasn’t

given the Mountbatten name. Well, that’s nonsense. They were dying to have another child and when Prince Andrew came along, they were absolutely thrilled. And and at the sort of letter from the Queen to one of her cousins saying, you know, “He’s going to get spoiled.” And I think he did a bit. And so I do know that the Queen got much more a sort of maternal joy out of the two younger ones than the two older ones because she was by then a very much more assured Queen and and she wasn’t frightened of the nanny anymore and she

was able to spend time with them. I remember seeing her, you know, with Prince Edward held by the hand in his little blue coat and but I remember seeing Prince Andrew as a little boy giving flo giving out a cup at the Windsor Horse Show when he was about six or eight or something. And uh um what was interesting also was that Cecil Beaton once went to take a pit well, he often went to the palace to photograph them.

In 1964, he was photographing the baby Prince Edward. And Prince Cecil Beaton was pretty acerbic. And in his diaries, he wrote a very good account of this. It’s always difficult photographing the Queen because she wasn’t photogenic. You looked through the camera, you saw this wonderful vision, it never translated. Whereas you couldn’t take a bad picture of Princess Margaret.

Prince Philip, as you can imagine, what’s he doing? Has he finished yet? I mean, yes. Get on with it. Get on with it. And then also by the way, what exposure would you use? And could I borrow your ladder? You know, a bit of a dilemma there. Princess Anne apparently very stroppy. So Cecil Beaton said, you know, I know you hate being photographed.

Go and go to the window. Hated looking to the left, hated looking to the right. And she sort of squirmed and wriggled and he took a few pictures. Prince Andrew at that point age four, he said was the politest and nicest little boy, you know, that you could possibly meet. And the politeness was instilled into him.

And that is probably the little boy the Queen always saw. I mean, mothers and sons, you know, they they there is this bond. Why do you think she gave him that 12 million pounds to settle with Virginia Giuffre? >> that it was 12 million pounds? Have we I think we’ve more or less established that.

Well, I mean, the simple reason is that, you know, the whole thing was going to eclipse the platinum jubilee and just want to get the whole thing out of the way. And that is what that is what people do in America. You’ll find it happens the whole time. People are wrongly accused of things, they pay up because it’s cheaper to do that than to go to court and fight it with all the things that come out.

But apparently not good enough for the world, you know. I am intrigued and delighted to read that the Queen really liked Sarah Ferguson. You are obsessed with Sarah Ferguson. It’s like Sarah Ferguson and Angela Rayner. You’ve got this thing for ginger controversial women. >> but for Sarah Ferguson.

>> Okay, fair enough. >> to see her restored. The thing is that I’ve always said that the most successful members of the royal family are the ones that don’t compete with the Queen. You know, for example, Sophie Wessex now Edinburgh absolutely didn’t. And Catherine absolutely didn’t. All supportive.

Diana for one reason or another did compete with the Queen. I mean, I don’t think she necessarily set out to, but that was the effect. But Sarah Ferguson’s just a, you know, just good fun girl and, you know, no competition at all. And I know the Queen got on well with her. And um the thing about Sarah Ferguson is, you know, she’s like a puppy, really.

She’s either sort of leaping up and licking your face or she’s cowed in the corner waiting to be sort of whipped for something she’s done wrong. Well, no, I wasn’t going to say that. But you know, but hang on a minute, Philip didn’t share the Queen’s admiration for Fergie.

He once described her as quotes odd and pointless. But he also said he chose her, you know. He chose her. He chose her to be No, I but Andrew he chose Oh, you’ve made your bed, you lie in it now, son. That sort of thing. Right. This is the other mystery, isn’t it? Why couldn’t Prince Philip with all of his no-nonsense ways have turned around to his errant son at some point between him being branded Randy Andy and Air Miles Andy and said, could you just wind your neck in and stop hanging around with pedophiles? Well, maybe he did. I don’t know, but I

what I do know because I’ve seen the letters is that he made a very, very spirited attempt to keep the Wales marriage going. And because there was a time when I think Paul Burrell had put a published a letter in which saying something that Prince Philip said something very rude about Diana. And so as I’d worked with his office, I was asked to come into Buckingham Palace and read these letters.

And they were very moving. I hope one day they can be published in full. Prince Philip’s letters to Diana and her replies. Really? What So he was basically marriage guidance counselor. He was very much saying very much keen to try to keep the marriage going publicly even if it was difficult privately. He he talked about how difficult it’d been for him when he first married into the family and the various, you know, as an outsider.

He he advised them, you know, to go to the opera together a lot because they both like music and things like that. We know it didn’t work in the long run. But he also said at one point, you know, Charles does find it very difficult to talk to you because every time he has a conversation with you, it ends up in the columns of the Am I allowed to say the Daily Mail? You’re allowed to say the Daily Mail, probably to Richard Kay.

And we must admire him for his journalistic So you know, that doesn’t make things very easy, does it? I’m astonished to read that towards the end of the Queen’s life, her husband spent so much time living away from her. And you write that quote, in a sense, they had separated. Well, in a funny way, yes.

She he’d done his bit, you know, he’d been working away for years. And and he wanted to go up to Wood Farm. I mean, they apparently talked every day on the telephone. And she did used to go up to Wood Farm quite a lot. Used to go up by train more than we realize. That’s Sandringham, just in case anyone needs the geography.

Round the corner from where Prince Andrew is moving into, Marsh Farm. Yes. And I’ve been to Wood Farm. I’ve seen it, you know, it’s it’s a modest modest establishment. But he was very happy up there sort of painting and reading and carriage driving and things like that. And of course, the famous time when he, you know, overturned his vehicle.

And they were couldn’t resist on the one occasion to quote Charles Brandreth. But Charles Brandreth at an oldie lunch shortly afterwards said, you can imagine Prince Philip on a speed awareness course. And I thought it was a lovely concept. Love to see that. Yes. But Hugo, you say he felt he’d done his bit.

You mean in terms of the job of being Duke or the marriage? No. No, the job. No, I mean, he he did I mean, listen, he he was also at Windsor Castle for Easter. He was around at Christmas. He did lots of things. But and then of course, when COVID came, the Queen got him back into the castle and they were together from March 2020 until he died in April 2021.

But you are making the point in this book that he did indeed die alone. On the last night of his life, he gave nurses the slip, shuffled along the corridor with his Zimmer frame, helped himself to a beer and drank it in the oak room. Yeah, good for him. The Queen was not present when he died. And you say that when she was told, she was quotes absolutely furious that as so often in life, he left without saying goodbye.

Yes, but that of course, when it was it that he was she was furious. In a way, it’s sort of tongue-in-cheek. In a way, it’s like like, well, he always left without saying goodbye. So she wasn’t terribly surprised on this occasion. A lot of people die when they’re alone. Basically, he died rather suddenly.

He got up, didn’t feel well, had a bath, didn’t feel well, laid down and then he just died. So she was in the castle at the time. She wasn’t far away. But it’s amazing cuz you reveal that he had pancreatic cancer, which is one of the most deadly. So it’s astonishing he lived for eight years. He had a very big operation in 2013.

I don’t know whether you would remember that he disappeared for quite a long time. And in fact, I I know that he was sometimes just sort of sitting on a chaise longue soaking up the sun. And then, you know, if he was well, he would go for a walk and things. And then suddenly, he reappeared I think in Edinburgh or Glasgow around a couple of months later and resumed his his duties.

So he had a huge operation. And you know, I think he I don’t know if I should say this, but he had I think a a stent in his arm they could just pop steroids into him if they needed to boost him up, you know. And can I ask very delicately whether we should probe any further his very close relationship with his carriage driving partner, Penny Brabourne? Well, I mean, she was a lot of time with him in his later years.

Yes, she was she was a I mean, she was great. She was very good with him. And and you know, the Queen I remember going to church in the Royal Chapel at Windsor. And the all three of them were there together, you know. Are we saying anything more about this? No, we’re not. No, but she’s she’s great. I mean, and he was fond of her.

And you know, she was a he was a great support to her when her marriage was in problem difficulties, which as you you know, it was and so on. But yeah, and she spent quite a lot of time up at Wood Farm as well. And after I think after certainly after he died, the Queen invited her to the Windsor Horse Show. So everybody happy.

Okay. Love this idea is of Prince Philip kind of repositioned as the Deirdre, the dear Deirdre of the royal family helping people with their marital woes. He wasn’t happy to to finish though, Hugo, with the Crown. You’re not happy with it. You don’t like the Crown, do you? I like everything about the Crown. Yes.

Because it was a lavish production with good script, good actors and actresses. But it’s fundamentally just totally dishonest. And they couldn’t care less. Their historical advisor said at one point, there is the truth and then there is the emotional truth. By which I think he meant that if you don’t like the truth, you just make it up.

So sometimes what they do is Hang on, who is that? Is this a rival author? Remind me who their historical advisor is. I can’t quite remember his name at the moment. Yes, this is somebody this is one of Hugo’s rivals. Carry on. He’s still around. Um he refused to debate with me once in public, which I thought was interest, but presumably he was too busy carrying sort of sacks of gold from Netflix to the bank. Oh, now. Mr.

Vickers, honestly. Let’s move on. What actually upset Prince Philip, quite rightly, was I mean, there was a terrible episode where there was this opening scene. There was a sort of a a rugby ball and a muddy field and some people kicking. And then it said Gordonstoun. I thought, oh God, here we go.

As indeed we did because there was a lot of rain pouring in on Prince Charles’s bed. Back in the office, they must have said, hey boys, you know, Prince Philip must have really hated Prince Charles. To send him to Gordonstoun may must make his father hate him. So they cooked up a scene whereby there was a fight. His half term was canceled.

He did not go to Darmstadt. His sister flew over and was killed in a plane crash. And he then went over to the funeral. And his father said to him, it’s because of you, boy, that we’re burying my favorite child. Well, no fight, no half term, probably wasn’t half term anyway. He wouldn’t have gone to Darmstadt. Yes, his sister did fly over.

And her plane in fog hit a chimney at Ostend and she was killed with her husband, her two boys, her mother-in-law, a number of entourage, and the little baby she was expecting was born and died in the accident. >> absolute tragedy. >> And then Prince Andrew of Greece came to pick up Prince Philip and took him over to the funeral with him.

And so how they could be so unkind as to turn that into a saga against Prince Philip. Well, I do know that he went to his lawyer. And luckily I was on the Today show Radio 4 and I told this story to to some extent he was listening as it happens. And to some extent I think he felt that the record had been put straight and there’s no point in going to lawyers because you know with these things it just gets worse and worse.

>> is interesting in his late 80s he was across The Crown and was incensed by this and might have taken action. It’s Well, I think he was upset on behalf of his family. You know, I think he was he was very upset about it and then quite rightly. I mean it was an outrageous thing to do and I I think the people who made The Crown should be deeply and everlastingly ashamed of themselves.

>> understood its popularity because so much money was spent on making it look as accurate as possible. And then there are bits in it which are just flagrantly made up. Like there’s there’s a conversation between Charles and Diana Yeah. that never happened. Then they’re supposed to finally split up and they happen to meet in a kitchen and they have a conversation that sort of foreshadows her death and things like that.

How about the scene with Geoffrey Howe for example? Geoffrey Howe lumbers out of bed. He goes into the House of Commons today. He make a speech. That was more or less faithful. Mrs. Thatcher sitting on the front bench looking depressed. Sure. Goes back. Members of the House of Commons come and talk to her.

Well, Prime Minister there’s you know, I’ll support you but there’s some rumblings in the back benches. Probably that happened. Back to Dennis who says, you know, the game’s up. And then would you believe it? Mrs. Thatcher character says, well, I’m going to the Queen to call a general election to save my skin. Well, she never did that.

>> No. I mean that is a absolute >> sacks her in that meeting in effect or persuades her to step down. It’s So ridiculous. I mean Although those two ladies didn’t get on that well. Well, you say that. I mean she I know the Queen was very upset at the way Mrs. Thatcher was removed from the from office by the Conservative Party. Also, look at this.

She she got the Order of Merit which is in the Queen’s gift. She became Lady of the Garter in the Queen’s gift. Queen met her 80th birthday. The Queen attended her funeral in person. The only other time she ever did that was Winston Churchill. It’s also ironically a left-wing fantasy. The idea of a socialist monarch who never liked the Prime Minister who the left all hate.

>> Oh, I know. And I think that’s been turned into an into a fantastic narrative. The Queen did was meant to have got on famously well with Harold Wilson. Well, Harold Wilson was a good but but but remember what I said before. It was Harold Wilson who told us that, not the Queen. >> No, that’s right.

But she also got on with figures like Robin Cook because Robin Cook was heavily into the horse racing. Well, she attended Wilson’s farewell party at number 10. Yes, she did. And that’s because he was a very unusual Prime Minister who retired while in number 10. So it’s one of those facts that people sort of leap on as proof that she was secretly Labour.

Well, I think if he’d asked her, she would accept. I mean Churchill she when they finally got Churchill to resign after, you know, he was about to resign from 1951 onwards till he finally resigned in April 1955. And then she went to dinner with him that night as well. But interestingly she told Anthony Eden, I wrote a book about Clarissa, Anthony Eden’s wife is a great friend of mine, and she told Anthony Eden, people always said that I was lucky to have Winston as my first Prime Minister. I wonder if I was. Yes.

>> it’s quite interesting that. How do you think Queen Elizabeth II will be remembered in hundreds of years’ time? I mean I’m just thinking of the other great long-reigning queens, Elizabeth I, Queen >> Easy to answer that one. One of your more easier questions. It’ll simply be remembered as one of the greatest reigns in British history where you had a woman who at the age of 21 made a promise to serve and kept that promise faithfully for 75 years.

And if we lived another thousand years, we’ll never see anything like it again. I think we were all incredibly lucky to live in her reign. I can’t think of another reign in history that I’d have preferred to live in under any circumstances, political, economical, or whatever. It has been fantastic and that’s largely due to her.

Hugo Vickers, your book Queen Elizabeth II, a personal history, is out now. Thank you so much for joining in such a fascinating discussion on the Daily T. Great to speak to you. Thank you for having me. If you’re enjoying our journalism, why not sign up to From the Editor, our free email newsletter.

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